ithika: (Faerie border)
[personal profile] ithika
I think that generally, bumper stickers make you look like an idiot. I saw this bumper sticker today which said "Stop Mining" and a subtitle that I couldn't read because they turned a corner. So it could have been an ironic statement I suppose, but I doubt it. It was some political sticker for Labor or something.

I mean, a bumper sticker like that is clearly only there to irritate people who disagree with you. The people who agree with you don't care, and you clearly aren't trying to instigate reasoned conversation about this thing.

For that matter, saying "Stop Mining" is incredibly retarded. I don't know why you would even want to promote a concept that stupid and poorly thought out. "No Uranium Mining" I can get, because the idea of nuclear power is obviously very controversial. I'm not sure what I think about the issue. I haven't really read up on it at all. On the one hand, when executed safely and responsibly, Nuclear Power is kind of good. However, nuclear waste is really bad. We can't just shoot it into space or drop it in the ocean or bury it in the desert, and I'm sure that one of those three options would be employed in the event of nuclear power coming into use. So I'd have to say that while Nuclear power is cleaner than say, burning coal, it's not as clean as tapping into the sun.  I really, honest to God can not figure out why people are even considering developing better ways to use nuclear power when we have a resource like solar power at our disposal.
* Trent said some things. It seems like Nuclear Power isn't as bad as I had thought. So yeah. Stuff.

So solar panels are "ugly"?
 So what?
Hire an architect?
Toughen the fuck up?
Design a better, smaller solar cell?

So anyway, back to saying "Stop Mining" on the side of your car. I mean, does that person even realise what would happen if all mining was banned? I mean what the hell? For one, and this is the flimsiest of reasons to not stop mining, the mining industry is currently generating hundreds (at least, I think it would probably number more in the thousands but I'm not entirely sure) of well paid jobs in Western Australia alone. Hasn't this person heard of "the mining boom?" Maybe they're just angry that they didn't get in on the high salary two weeks on one week off life? Maybe they're actually angry about something else (I wouldn't doubt it, political bumper sticker people seem to always be angry about something) like.. high interest rates?
 
But really, saying "Stop Mining" is as stupid as saying "Stop Farming." In fact, stopping mining would effectively stop farming sooner or later. So in a way, it's a stupider statement to make. Where do they think the fuel that runs their car comes from? The electricity in their house? The ring on their finger? The plastic wrap on their sandwich? The fuel and metal that allowed the machine that harvested the crop that made their sandwich to be built and operated?

Sure, recycling would allow us to make better use of some things, and then mining would be less necessary. But it would still be necessary. In fact, unless we are able to become a society which produces no waste (completely recycles every single thing that we use) and gives up the oil and starts using power sources which are actually sustainable (Ha! It would be nice but I think it's quite laughable with the state of things, and the attitudes of people in general) But even if we were able to use solar power for everything, we would still need to mine the materials used to make the things. And to be quite honest, solar technology is not good enough yet to replace fuel based power. We would still need to have something else for cloudy days, winter, night. I mean it's getting there, but unfortunately I think the only way that "dirty" power sources will be replaced entirely in our lifetimes is when we suck the Earth dry of all usable fossil fuels. And I don't think that's going to happen in our lifetimes.

And I don't care that I don't know the entire context of the statement any more, because thinking about it, that's the entire point behind bumper stickers. They are a one or two line statement of your beliefs. So if it can't be summed up in one or two lines, it probably shouldn't be on a bumper sticker. Because that's how it's going to be interpreted.

I mean, the whole idea is retarded. I don't like some things about farming, but you don't hear me going around with bumper stickers on my car saying "Stop Farming," because I know that without farming I don't eat. And several other things, too. And you can't say something like... err... well actually I don't really have any problems with farmers or farming overall (the thing I was thinking about earlier is actually quite unrelated to farming, really - people complain about how mining damages natural environments all the time, but they have to go through lengthy and complex rehabilitation after mining out an area. To my knowledge, which again is limited, farmers don't have to fix the water table if they or previous farmers have caused an area to develop salinity problems because they cut down too many trees. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure this is correct.).  I'm going to pretend that I... hm, I really don't have a problem with this, in fact I think that the animal rights activists were stupid to do this, but let's say that I was against the practise of cutting away skin from a sheep's rear end to stop them from getting flyblown. I can't put that on a bumper sticker, so I'd... get off track.  I mean longpost is long already.

My point is: if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all um, you're stupid, random bumper-sticker wearing white four wheel drive1. And I hate you.



1 HA! How ironic for a big city four wheel driver to have a sticker saying "stop mining". Wow, that makes this whole thing even more stupid.

Also if this post makes it sound like I'm against green power or whatever, I'm not. I am very much for it. But I think that mining is important, needed, useful, not as harmful as most people think, and not the cause of the world's problems, by a long shot.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 08:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tattered-pinion.livejournal.com
"Stop mining" is pretty lol.

Nuclear power is awesome.

I'm all for which ever party does the space shooting by the way.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 08:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Oh wait, Nuclear Waste space shooting?
I should have expected this.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 09:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volandum.livejournal.com
Trent beat me to some of it. So, what's the matter with shooting it into space? It's not going to make a difference to the lethal ambient radiation levels even if you're sitting next to it in space.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 11:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
I don't know, I just find dumping things into places we assume we know enough about to be somewhat irresponsible.
For example, people used to think that dumping stuff or letting sewerage run into waterways and oceans was okay. We now know that it's not, and that it has serious repercussions in many ways.

I know that our level of knowledge of space is more advanced than 1200-1700 people's understanding of waterways, but do we know enough to be confident that it isn't going to land on some planet and destroy things?
It may be a naive view, but again, I don't really know enough about this to say anything other than it smacks of arrogance and carelessness to just dump stuff in places.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 11:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volandum.livejournal.com
We know enough about space to send stuff out of the solar system.

Since our waste is going to have epsilon speed when it exits the solar system, I think you have a few million years to realise that there is a problem and do something about it.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 12:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Well, I suppose.

What about the aliens?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 08:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tattered-pinion.livejournal.com
"we can't just shoot it into space"

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 08:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
maybe we could shoot it into the sun instead.
I wonder how much plutonium it would take to accidentally blow up our sun.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 08:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tattered-pinion.livejournal.com
More than our earth contains probably :(

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 08:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
It's a pity, but it's also a good thing.

So yeah, shooting into the sun is now a viable option.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 08:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Unless men made of fire come to Earth to rain fiery revenge upon us.\
Unlikely, but possible.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 08:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tattered-pinion.livejournal.com
Oh my god you are just as terrible as Bean.
Reply to MY comments if you want me to actually notice them :P

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 09:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Bean isn't terrible at all.
So thanks.

And I don't care :P
The rest of the world knows that I realised what you were talking about.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-09 03:39 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 09:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
OH WAIT
you missed my fire men comment too
okay, sorry lol

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 09:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tattered-pinion.livejournal.com
Bean does that all the time: Thus Bean-level-terrible

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 09:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
I don't have a problem with this.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-09 06:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Huh? :'(
I meant the same thing as before! That you aren't terrible
(thus if I'm Bean-level terrible then I'm not terrible at all)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-09 06:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] almightybean.livejournal.com
Oh okay. Thanks!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 09:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volandum.livejournal.com
If I recall correctly, the best solar cell available is the sugar beet plant. Really takes it out of the soil though.

Um, what does salinity have to do with water tables?

"I really, honest to God can not figure out why people are even considering developing better ways to use nuclear power when we have a resource like solar power at our disposal. "

Really? What if we downgrade the competing technologies to coal/oil and wood?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 09:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Is that useful for powering houses, however?

Salinity : explanation (http://www.environment.gov.au/land/pressures/salinity/index.html).
I could have written this myself, but I've already procrastinated enough as it is and I wouldn't have said anything different. Actually, I will add this - Australian native trees like Eucalypts have deep-reaching Tap Roots and they stop the water table from rising and collecting salt crystals on its way up. A crude explanation but yes, I'm busy. :P

Coal and Oil are fossil fuels, what?
Wood is fine.
Uranium is also a finite resource. Solar power is not, even if it is less efficient.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 10:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volandum.livejournal.com
Yes, I think you get 60% conversion from the sun, and about 15% overall.

I see, thank you.

Nuclear power is compact (so useful in travelling arrangements like ships or research stations), generates useful byproducts (see medicine, many radioactive products are generated by irradiation themselves), works independent of latitude (again, think research station or oppressive sub), and is an available source of power. You're not the ruler of the world ordering "Nuclear Power Efficiency I" or "Solar Power Efficiency II" of your research staff, people have interest in nuclear power for short-term benefit and pure research purposes, so they will consider them. If you need to spend a hundred million pounds on research and the same on development to get an extra billion pounds' worth of electricity out of your uranium reserves, why not?

For some realistic definition of "finite", clearly.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 11:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Hm, that's interesting.

No problem. Before, were you thinking about another definition of salinity? That is the dominant definition here, because salinity is (evidently) a serious problem in WA. Or at least, it is for me, because I took geography in high school, and our teacher went into crazy detail about the issue.

I'm not actually against nuclear power. As I said (or at least, I tried to say) above, I don't really know enough about it to have a firm yes or no opinion on it. I mentioned it in the "No uranium mining" comment for just that reason - it's something about which exists a lot of confusion and controversy, so while a bumper sticker like that would still be stupid, it's not as stupid (and more understandable) than a bumper sticker that says "Stop mining."

What's wrong with aiming for maximum efficiency, though? I think I might have misunderstood you there.

I don't actually think that solar power is a worldwide solution, nor is it likely to be a complete one. I think 50% solar generated power for houses would be good. The problems existing with it could probably be ironed out eventually (the same as problems with nuclear power, I would imagine.). My real issue is that there isn't enough public interest in 'green power' developments for them to be refined and developed.

Well, honestly people should put more effort into finding permanent solutions (hah) to problems, rather than turning to things which sooner or later will run out. Humanity is unlikely to outlive the sun, but who knows how quickly we would be able to use all of the Earth's uranium reserves?
Granted, the earth is large, and other minerals and elements are clearly in large supply.
Like I said, I don't know enough about the subject to argue about this properly, and I'm not necessarily against nuclear power. I think Solar power is cool though. Especially in Australia. I can see how it would be close to useless in some countries, though.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 11:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volandum.livejournal.com
I was thinking salt concentration, maybe water pressure/density at a pinch. It's not a problem in the UK.

I didn't think you were against nuclear power. You were wondering why research on improving nuclear power generation persisted, weren't you?

You did. I mean that research is guided by individuals and groups with their own aims, not the benevolent dictator of, say, Civilisation.

Okay. My parents are academic electrical engineers working in large-scale implementations of renewable energy. Not my field.

Okay. I think nuclear power is fun, and geothermal is awesome. I want to see an enormous University faction in Greenland powered by geothermal.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 12:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Well, I could have written it better. I meant to question why people put more effort into researching energy resources which are known to be from a finite resource to the detriment of solar energy, why can't they be researched simultaneously, etc. Obviously there may be some desire there to maintain a dependence on fuel and the profit that is made from this, but I'm not sure if I want to be that cynical about humanity.

That's true.

Geothermal? I used to know something about this, and now I've forgotten what it was. Something to do with... heat and rocks? Hah. Any interesting links about it?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 12:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] volandum.livejournal.com
Should have written it better. They are researched simultaneously, you can see [see your prediction of high improvements in solar technology in the near future]. Such a desire would be irrelevant - different organisations fund different research according to their goals.

You get superheated steam by using very hot rock to heat water, I think is the basic idea. My memory's not great either. Let's ask Trent.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 11:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] louisthefly.livejournal.com
I'm not going to enter into the debate on nuclear power (my opinion is already well known, if you don't know it you can guess) but my favourite bumper sticker is the one with the map of Australia that says "fuck off were full"

I just think it's ironic that the people who have those bumper stickers are probably the same people who want English testing for migrants. And I know it's wrong to attack their argument on the basis of poor grammar, but when its such a well-thought-out argument on the pro and cons of immigration it's hard to attack it any other way



now THAT'S sarcasm!

and you can actually buy these bumper stickers http://wondermark.com/d/175.html
and also the 'where's my elephant?' shirts

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 11:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Yeah, I've noticed that too, but I hadn't thought of the whole English testing for migrants thing. It is hilariously ironic.

Hah, that comic amuses me.
Elephant?

Another point that is (somewhat) related to this discussion is that (in America) people who don't want immigrants to be paid as much as Americans also don't want companies to give jobs to immigrants instead of Americans. The point made by the website guy was that if immigrants were paid as much as Americans, employers wouldn't choose them over Americans (unless they were better for other reasons, which isn't impossible.)

The world is full of people with confusing views about things.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 11:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] louisthefly.livejournal.com
there's a whole movement of people who think Spanish shouldn't be allowed in America, and they make shirts saying things like 'I shouldn't have to press 1 for English'

stupid...but that's not the discussion...

http://wondermark.com/d/188.html
and here's my two favourites
http://wondermark.com/d/300.html
http://wondermark.com/d/282.html

I just typed a whole rant and then deleted it

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 11:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
That's stupid yeah.

That comic is so great. How have I not come across it before?

Aww whyyyy. Vetoed.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 11:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] louisthefly.livejournal.com
too late.

And I don't know. I read comics that other comics link to, or people who do guest strips in my favourite comics. That's how I came across this one. I don't remember where it started though. Maybe dinosaur comics?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 12:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Ah yes, dinosaur comics. Another fantastic thing.
I used to do that, I don't do enough of it anymore! I wonder wha't happening on Megatokyo these days...

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-08 12:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] louisthefly.livejournal.com
oh the memories...

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-09 03:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reaps.livejournal.com
meghan i mostly like you but your politics are fucking terrible

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-09 06:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
I don't see what's wrong with finding a bumper sticker that says "Stop Mining" stupid. I don't dislike it because it's a Labor sticker, either. :P

Also, thanks.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-09 11:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] auntpol.livejournal.com
I don't think it would be a Labor sticker...really...they wouldn't put forward something that controversial. Are you sure?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-09-09 01:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bloodied-aura.livejournal.com
Reasonably sure, because I remember the logo being next to it. (And I just double-checked the logo.) However, it's possible that the Labor sticker was separate and just next to the bumper sticker in question, I can't say for sure.

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